Interviews with Leaders in Fintech & Web3
Interviews with Leaders in Fintech & Web3
How to make it in Technology Law: Graduate Advice from Goodwin Procter Partner and Oxford University Alumni Andrew Davis
Andrew Davis, Partner at Goodwin Procter and Oxford University Alumni, shares his thoughts on the future of fintech and gives invaluable career advice for any aspiring law graduate.
The former Magic Circle graduate started his career at Allen & Overy, before departing for Taylor Wessing. Within just 14 years of graduating from Oxford University, with a degree in Law, Andrew made Partner at Taylor Wessing and spent 7 years in his position before joining Goodwin Procter as a Partner, advising in their Technology and Life Sciences practices.
Andrew Davis joins Work in Fintech founder Matthew Cheung and founder member Ben Ford to help our listeners better understand the future of fintech, investment trends in the industry, and how law students can get themselves a seat in the Magic Circle.
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Matthew Cheung 00:08
Hi, this is Matt from Work in Fintech, I'm the founder of Work in Fintech, I'm also CEO of a FinTech firm called iPushPull and a co-founder of a firm called Newsquawk, and what we're going to do is teach you about all things fintech. So I'm joined today by one of our founding members, Ben Ford, who's a master's student at Cass. And he's going to be interviewing our guest today, who's Andrew Davies, who's a partner at law firm Goodman Procter.
Hi, Andrew. Good to have you here today. Can we kind of kick off looking at you're obviously a partner at a law firm. How would that apply to FinTech for people looking to get into this area? So there's probably a few things we can explore here. One is around kind of what is fintech? But then you're actually in a very unique position, which I think a lot of people probably wouldn't really appreciate. Maybe people even in the industry don't appreciate, because if you could just talk through that, because I think our listeners would find that really interesting.
Andrew Davis 01:08
So thanks Matt, Ben, thanks very much for having me. So first of all, what do I do? My work is exclusively in the world of tech and obviously FinTech is, certainly in the UK and possibly beyond, you know, the largest single vertical within tech. And so what does that actually mean? So I support companies throughout their lifecycle. So we will start working with companies in their early days, we'll help them raise financing as they get larger and grow, we'll help them scale, we'll help and we'll take the international then ultimately we'll help them IPO or exit or we'll take them wherever they want to go. We act for companies we act for venture and other investors supporting tech companies of all shapes and sizes, but in particular FinTech, which is the focus of this conversation today. Just to your point Matt, you know, we probably we do in excess of 200, just to give you a feel just in my team just in London, we do in excess of two hundred funding rounds a year. So that's a lot of companies we see. And obviously those aren't all fintech, but a lot of them are. And in the US, our platform there will see multiples of that. So we see an awful lot of companies. We see both in the company side and from an investor side, we see a lot of IPOs, we see a lot of acquisition exits as well. So we actually have a, I think, a fairly unique overview of the sector throughout the life cycles of these companies, because, as I say, we start with these companies in the early days, we like to partner with in the early days, get to know them really well, and then scale with them as big as they want to go. So hopefully that sort of sets the scene in terms of sort of what I do and sort of my perspective on the sector. You touched as well, I think on what is Fintech and Fintech is incredibly broad, frankly. I mean, it's incredibly broad and it can mean so many different things. You know, when you first have fintech, you look at all the digital banks, etc., but I mean, it's way broader than that. It can touch anything from payments to cybersecurity to everything in between. It doesn't necessarily need to be a regulated business at all. And I think the other thing about FinTech is it's important to not see Fintech just in isolation. I mean, there are so many companies that that intersect with other verticals, so RegTech, regulation technology, and InsureTech. A lot of those companies have a strong technology component. Retail tech, e-commerce has a strong Fintech crossover very commonly. You mentioned crypto as well. So it is incredibly broad. I think it's important not to be not to put sort of fintech companies in a single bucket because it can it can mean so many different things to so many different companies and so many different people.
Ben Ford 03:48
It's great to hear, with you being a partner at one of the leading tech law firms in the world. You're in a unique position where you represent companies, anything as you said from start-ups to companies listed on the market. What kind of trends are you see him right now following the crazy 2020 that we just had?
Andrew Davis 04:03
It's a fascinating time at the moment for tech in general, but in particular Fintech. And I think what we're seeing and what we'll continue to see, I suspect, is a is a real acceleration in the take up of Fintech of all shapes and sizes. For certain parts of Fintech, I think last year some of the large banks were sort of working out what the future was going to look like. But I think through the situation we're at, at the moment, just Fintech has just never been more front and centre. And I think that will only continue. And so what are we seeing in FinTech? We're seeing as across technology, we're seeing huge amounts of money pouring into the space. And we saw we check out just the other day with a huge funding round and there's a huge amount of capital being poured into fintech and we're seeing increased investment from the US, for example. I see lots of growth, lots of opportunity. And, you know, when you're in a situation like we're in at the moment, it's going to drive innovation. When you're seeing that mass adoption, when you're seeing when you're seeing some of the challenges that it's throwing up, it's going to drive innovation. And I think you're going to continue to see that both the growing of existing companies, but also new companies coming in. Particular sort of areas where we're seeing any specific trends. You know, I think that growth is happening across the space. Some areas like security is going, you know, we've just seen the amount of cybercrime since the pandemic has gone through the roof. I mean, some of the numbers have just been quite extraordinary. Cybersecurity have never been more important. Mentioned crypto already. I think it was sort of a little bit unclear which way crypto was going to go, but I think it's going to be going to be a strong area. I think the increased use of blockchain, digital banks, I think is going to have a strong time. They're not going to be winners, clearly, but every bank is a digital bank now. And in that world, the incumbents are frankly always going to have to struggle against some of the newer entrants, financial inclusion. You know, you've got one point seven billion or more people in the world who don't have access to banks. There's a huge opportunity there, especially in this environment of financial inclusion, finding a home for those individuals. So just sort of giving you a few. Ideas of some of the areas, but hopefully within that, it just sort of shows quite how broad, you know, the space is and quite how broad the opportunities are, as I see it.
Ben Ford 06:17
Something I kind of find interesting is that obviously, as you say, it's a great time for investment. Do you believe that we'll have a segmented market in five years time, there'll be specialists in FinTech, in RegTech, or do you believe that there might be companies in the future that specialise in multiple sectors?
Andrew Davis 06:35
I think there'll be a mixture. I think you already have, you know, sort of investors, VCs in particular, who are, for example, who are focussed just on Fintech, and you have a number of other investors who have invested in Fintech alongside other verticals. And I see that as a positive dynamic. And I suspect that that will continue. I think you will have. And as we've seen just in the last few days, we've seen one or two new Fintech focussed VCs appearing. And I think you'll continue to see that. But I think you'll continue to see them play alongside investors who have a broader investment remit. And of course, the banks have been very, very important investors in Fintech, clearly. And I think that's calmed a little bit since the pandemic. But I'm sure that'll come back. They've been very important to investors in Fintech.
Ben Ford 07:26
You obviously spend a lot of time around different Fintech verticals, and different types of companies. Do you have any particular sort of company, any sort of particular Fintech company that are catching your eye or a particular sector that catching in your eye at the moment?
Andrew Davis 07:39
I mentioned a few sectors, I think, that I think a few verticals within FinTech that I think are going to be strong. I always hesitate slightly for picking specific winners. But look, I think that they're clearly going to be some losers along the way. But I think, you know, I think the opportunity across Fintech and, you know, some of the examples I gave earlier sort of RegTech, cybersecurity, and sort of blockchain generally, digital banks and, you know regulation technology, everything around that, sort of money laundering, helping the banks sort of navigate this new regulations, perhaps not the sexiest area, but is critical, will continue to thrive.
Ben Ford 08:21
I think something kind of interesting, given the current climate and the current deals deals we're seeing companies do, how do you believe Crypto might interact with companies in different sectors in the form of method of payments, for example?
Andrew Davis 08:34
Look, I mean, clearly, the move that Tesla made a day or two ago was pretty significant. That said that move is very much, I suspect, driven by one company and possibly even one individual within that company. And frankly, it was quite an extreme sort of move. I don't know, I do not know the answer to that question, and I wish I did, but I don't see mass adoption in that in that sense any time very soon. But there clearly is a home for crypto, and I don't see that going anywhere. The big unknown is how mass will it get? And if I knew that, I wouldn't be sitting here, doing what I do these days. Look it'll be an interesting time. That's one of the things that makes the sector so interesting, by the way, is we don't know all the answers. We don't know all the winners. We don't know what trends are going to end up really sort of winning. You just look back, you know, last sort of five years and just see how the world of Fintech has just completely turned on its head and looking forward another five years. You know, just the possibilities are endless in terms of where it may take us. One thing I have learnt is predictions are a dangerous thing in FinTech. But as I say, that's what makes, that's is one of the things that makes it such an exciting place to be.
Ben Ford 09:57
Obviously, being situated in the UK, you're going to see many more deals concentrated on UK and Europe companies. Do you see a difference in the way companies in the UK and in Europe are valued, specifically in tech, in comparison to the U.S.?
Andrew Davis 10:12
It's a very interesting point. So I see a lot of companies based in the UK and Europe raising money. And certainly historically it's often been said, you know, that in the US the valuations are higher, so more money was being pumped into these companies. I think that's probably still true to an extent. But I think what we are seeing is, is a lot of the US investors, especially West Coast investors, but across the board really, looking outside their home market, a couple of things are driving that. Firstly, there are just an incredibly high tech companies coming out of the UK and Europe now and have been for a while. But I think these companies are really hitting a scale, a really impressive scale. And also, you know, these investors are looking for value. A lot of investors are seeing better value deals or at least good value deals coming out of the UK and Europe.
Matthew Cheung 11:04
Do you see London kind of maintaining its strong hold, because, I suppose, Fintech 1.0, when it was some of the open banking and that side of things, London was a leader in that and then probably kind of China and Asia and that area. And the US was somewhat of a laggard in Fintech. Now they're kind of catching up, and now there's this kind of talk that they may overtake what we have here in London. Do you kind of feel the same way, or do you think London has a lot of advantages here compared to anywhere else in the world?
Andrew Davis 11:37
I think we have a unique ecosystem here in London, and I think we will continue to produce some of the world's greatest fintech companies for the foreseeable future. I do not see that playing or that changing. We have a unique mixture in London of financial institutions and a very entrepreneurial tech ecosystem. We've got an incredible track record of producing Fintech companies, great Fintech companies, and I really don't see that changing. And, you know, I think the point I was making before around the US, money coming into UK and Europe, I think is very important and it is starting to narrow that gap, for that sort of value, the gap of that sort of valuations and capital flow differentials between Europe and the US. And I think all of these things, all of these trends, are pointing towards Fintech companies in the UK and Europe growing at a greater scale than ever before. The capital, the entrepreneurialism, the rapid rapid shift to digitisation that we're seeing at the moment, I think is seeing, it has already seen and is going to continue to fuel huge growth opportunities through UK, Europe and Globally.
Ben Ford 12:47
Something we've touched on is how technology has changed a lot of peoples work, from regulation to insurance to finance, but we haven't talked about how it's changed your job. How has technology changed the way that you work?
Andrew Davis 12:59
Well, nowhere more so than the last 12 months, frankly. So look, everything we do is one way or other uses technology in there, but there are a lot of platforms that we use helping to get documents signed and helping to helping to make our internal processes as efficient as possible. That will continue to evolve. And that is a good thing. Anything that can take the simpler jobs, the more straightforward jobs out of the hands of lawyers and digitise them is a good thing because it creates value for money for companies. And frankly, it leaves the interesting work for the lawyers. And I don't see, you know, I don't see the role of lawyers, there'll will always be a role for lawyers over and above technology. But I see technology as being a very important partner to law firms and that will continue to evolve. You know, clearly, the last 12 months has been extraordinary. Putting deals together and building relationships and negotiating when everyone's working remotely has created some really unique challenges. But great deals will continue to be done and great companies are continuing to be built. I think one of the big challenges that I think a lot of tech companies are taking in this environment, especially companies that are in the relatively early days, is building a really good culture and keeping that communication really, really strong. And I think that is undoubtedly some challenges and certainly other technologies are helpful there. But I think that there are definitely some significant challenges that have been thrown up by the tech companies, by the current environment.
Ben Ford 14:32
Following that something I really want to find out is, given the rapid development you've had in the last 12 months of technology, do you think it will leave a lasting effect on law as a profession?
Andrew Davis 14:42
Oh, I think it'll leave a lasting effect on every profession and law absolutely. Look, I don't know what the future holds in terms of any more than any one else, but I would be fairly confident the world of working from home is now so normalised and then there are some positive aspects of that. So people have proven very emphatically that work can be done very effectively, remotely, that that will continue to persist. Now, I believe very firmly, certainly in my profession, that there will always be a very, very important role of office in bringing people together and building culture and collaborating and all those great things that happen when you are there in person. And it just somehow that much more difficult to do when we are remote. Frankly, it's just frankly more enjoyable when you are together and you are together as a team and not just law, I'm sure that's a lot of other areas as well. So, I will always see a future of offices, in my view, will always have a very important role to play, but I think so will working remotely, I think there will be a balance going forward, which actually will probably be, probably in many ways we've got a healthy balance.
Ben Ford 15:53
You took quite a traditional route into law. What attracted you to corporate transactions in tech. Did you graduate and think this is exactly what I want to do? Or is it something you adopted over your career?
Andrew Davis 16:05
I did not. No. I certainly didn't know. I'm afraid the day when I graduated was a rather long time ago now. And the world of tech really didn't exist. And it was not, it just didn't exist as a career path, really. If it did, it was certainly not a mainstream one. And to be honest with you know, it took me a while, it took me some time to get into tech. I started out as a very, as you say, very mainstream legal career, at a Magic Circle law firm. And what I realised, look, I love what I do, but the most enjoyable aspect of my business, of my work especially as I've got more senior, is the companies and the people that I work with. And for me, tech is as interesting as it gets. And the people are generally, the people who work in tech, are generally great and exciting and good to work with. And for me that that as I say, that is the single thing that makes my job most interesting is working with interesting companies and interesting people, doing great things and frankly, in some cases changing the world. And that's pretty cool. And I feel very privileged to be working in this area. I've been doing this work in tech pretty much exclusively for the last decade or so. And it's just come on, it's just when you just look back and you just see the scale of the growth and the scale of the companies that are being formed and the scale of investing, it's completely centre stage now, and now more than ever before. And I think there's an interesting, the fascinating, fascinating time to come!
Matthew Cheung 17:39
Just for our listeners, Andrew. Can you explain what the Magic Circle is? Because I think maybe people who are not in the legal profession wouldn't know.
Andrew Davis 17:47
Very, very sorry, I'm sorry, I try not to use jargon, so apologies for letting that slip. So there are five sort of UK headquartered law firms who are five of the largest law firms in the world, but certainly the five largest, or five of the largest ones in the UK and Europe. And they, for whatever reason, are known as the 'Magic Circle'. So I started my career in one of those, and since moved into tech at a firm that is the top of the game, in tech.
Ben Ford 18:15
Given that you didn't have aspirations to go into tech as a lawyer, you didn't really know about it, as you said. What advice would you give to students that might want to get into tech as a law professional?
Andrew Davis 18:27
I would say choose your law firm carefully. Every law firm is trying to do some tech. Not that many law firms, in fact, I would say very few law firms do it really, really well and really get it and really understand what it is to be anywhere in tech. And it needs to really be in the blood of the firm. Goodwin, for example, we are divided completely in sector lines. We are one tech team in Europe, in the US, in Asia, we are just tech across all the different the different disciplines that you need. And you know this and the mentality of going, of approaching the sector, stage agnostic, starting early, building deep roots, growing with these clients, invest in and actively working with investors and acquirers in tech and just really having your arms around that ecosystem, I think, is just so, so important. But I think not every firm has that impact. In fact, I'd say they're pretty firm to do.I think picking the right firm is important. And I think also choosing a firm with the right geographic spread is important. You know, the US is critical, for example. So I think making sure that your firm has has the right geographic footprint that matches the work that you'd like to do. But I think just be open minded as well. Tech and fintech covers so many different areas. There are so many different opportunities and ways to get involved in it is a sector. Just sort of get out there, meet people and just sort of throw yourself into it.
Ben Ford 19:54
It's interesting to hear that Goodwin Procter splits itself up into specific sectors. Are you starting to see trends in law graduates in your tech division?
Andrew Davis 20:03
People come into our firm are interested in tech, it's just such important part of what we do. And look tech is kind of mainstream now in a sense that it just wasn't, you know, when I was coming through from university, you know, the world of tech, whatever you're doing, whether it's law or, you know, there's so many different ways to get into tech one way or other. But it is really front and centre in so many ways that tech is just so front and centre in terms of opportunities that are out there. That's so, so different to when I was coming through. You know, it's not surprising that tech is an area of real interest for graduates coming through. And great. I think it is a fascinating area to be. I would just say, know what you want and be open about this is what you want to do. Just throw yourself at it. And if the perfect opportunity doesn't present itself out of the blocks, find other ways in. There are so, so many ways into working in tech, whether it be in or anything else.
Ben Ford 21:01
Given that law is such a competitive field to start out in, what are three things you love to see on a graduate application, be it their CV, their cover letter, or the first interaction you have with them in an interview?
Andrew Davis 21:12
Oh, that's a great question. And I'm not sure I could point at one thing. I really don't, because every applicant is different. And there is not one skill set that I, or my colleagues, are looking for. I think it is really important to say that we take a very open minded view. We want people who are going to be, yes, very strong with the law, that's critical, but are also going to be people who our clients are going to want to spend time with. Ultimately, our clients are instructing people. We're not robots. We're people who want to instruct people and people with good judgement and good legal abilities. And frankly, you know, when you're in the middle of a difficult negotiation, a sense of humour goes a long way. And so I think, there's not one thing we're looking for, but when you meet the right person, then it's often quite clear that that person is the right person.
Matthew Cheung 22:03
So I think just to wrap up, Andrew, if you were to meet your younger, 18 year old self, have you got one piece of wisdom you would give to yourself?
Andrew Davis 22:14
Work in an industry that interests you. That might be tech, it doesn't necessarily need to be tech, it's not going to be for everyone but work in an industry that interests you, because ultimately, whether you're doing law or anything else, I think working in the industry that interests you with interesting people, that is what's going to change your working life for the better. More than I think pretty much anything else.
Matthew Cheung 22:38
Great, thank you Andrew. So to wrap up, that's Ben Ford interviewing partner and legal tech lawyer Andrew Davis from Goodwin Procter. Thank you.
Andrew Davis 22:49
Thanks very much indeed for having me.
Ben Ford 22:51
Thank you.