Interviews with Leaders in Fintech & Web3
Interviews with Leaders in Fintech & Web3
How to Conquer NFT's: Exclusive Interview with 12-Year-Old Weird Whales Creator Benyamin Ahmed
In an exclusive interview held with Benyamin Ahmed and his father Imran Ahmed, we learn how 12 years old Benyamin first got into NFTs, what inspired him to create the Weird Whales collection which led him to amassing a small fortune of $450k just in a few weeks, and his journey to becoming an "overnight success".
Benyamin explains how to create coding superpowers that will enable you to do great things in crypto and the metaverse and also shares his ideas for future billion dollar opportunities in the digital world. Imran Ahmed, Benyamin's father, talks about how he encouraged curiosity, creativeness and entrepreneurship with his sons, and how he feels about the journey they have been on.
In this episode, the pair joined Work in Fintech founder Matthew Cheung and founder member Jagraj Singh to discuss the growing fascination with NFTs, explain what they are, along with their potential purpose and use cases.
For more check out www.workinfintech.com and sign up to the mailing list!
0:00 Current Feelings
0:41 Creating Wealth with Weird Whales
1:19 The Journey to Achieving the Wealth
4:36 The Success of Weird Whales
5:16 Benyamin being Bankless
5:32 Imran's Feelings about the Success
8:37 Routines and Habits
10:30 Benyamin's Interest in Coding
11:28 What is an NFT and why are they valuable?
13:52 Clunky Experiences with NFTs
18:35 Benyamin's Future Plans
20:11 The World in 10/20 Years Time
23:15 Going to University
26:29 Advice for Fellow Young People
29:00 What have you both learned over the summer?
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Matthew Cheung (00:00):
Hi, this is Matt from Work in FinTech. I'm very excited today to be joined by Benyamin and his father who recently have been very, very active in NFTs. So it's really good to meet you guys, and it's great to have you on the podcast and it's been a guest completely wild ride over the last summer. How do you both feel at the moment?
Benyamin Ahmed (00:27):
I'm feeling excited! Some people have told me "oh, you can just leave school, you've got the money now", but earning this much money wants me to keep on learning and keep on doing the coding every day consistently for few years.
Matthew Cheung (00:41):
Fantastic. And to get things started when Benyamin, can you talk to us about how you managed to create $450,000 worth of wealth in NFTs and you made $160,000 in nine hours? Is that right?
Benyamin Ahmed (00:57):
Yes. So I got interested in NFTs early this year because my dad's friend has been in Bitcoin for a very long time. Bought an NFT, called a Rare Pepe, which is on the Bitcoin network for $27,000. And I instantly became fascinated that someone was willing to spend this much money. So I started researching.
Matthew Cheung (01:19):
And obviously there's no such thing as an overnight success. So you said you started researching. So can you talk us through the whole kind of journey from, obviously you've had to learn how to create NFTs and before that probably learning how to code being exposed to computers and technology. Can you talk to us about the whole journey because we obviously, with a lot of press that you've had recently, you hear about, you know, the amount of money, but actually I'm sure it's not as easy as something you just did overnight.
Benyamin Ahmed (01:53):
I began watching YouTube videos about NFTs and pixel art, as I found pixel art a really easy form of artwork to learn. So I watched a few YouTube videos and then went on to create my first collection called Minecraft Yee Haa, which consisted of 40 small Minecraft characters, which were all handmade. And I then uploaded all 40 manually to OpenSea. So just getting used to OpenSea and the minting on OpenSea and how it works, your collection, changing the banner, changing the collection profile picture. So I worked on Minecraft Yee Haa and unfortunately I didn't sell any of them, but I gave one away on Twitter, but I learned a lot about NFTs just from doing Minecraft Yee Haa as my first collection. And also this, I wanted to enter the generative space in this NFT sector. So I started work on Weird Whales. So I created all the traits and base layers in an online website, fed them into an open source Python script, kindly shared by another collection called Boring Bananas. And you press run on that script. And it's just amazing because you can just see all the way it was hatching on your screen. And I remember my dad came back from a two hour walk and me and my brother, we were standing around the computer and we were shocked how amazingly it was looked. We never thought that they would come out so nice and pixel perfect. So after this, I started working on the smart contract and the smart contract is quite easy. You just look at the existing standard smart contract and just change the variables. So when it says maximum supplies, token, you change up to your maximum supply, but the hard bit I needed, my dad helped me with, which was when you connect the smart contract to the website. So I created the layout for the website, with all the buttons, but then my dad then helped me connect the smart contract to the website. When you press mint, it uses a mint function on smart contract. I then wrote a thread on Google Docs on how I was able to do this at the age of 12. I mean, my dad sat down and looked through it, did some final touch-ups and I then posted this straight on Twitter. I had, I think, 50 followers at the time, not that many, but I think because V from Boring Bananas, the NFT collection I talked about earlier, he retweeted it. And after a few hours, the thread went viral. So initially we sold about 200 in the beginning, but then when you kept reloading the page a hundred more transactions would come through. And I remember me and my dad, I think it was about nine o'clock in the afternoon. Me and my dad went downstairs and we said on Twitter, wow, thank you so much for connecting with my story and wanting to buy these Weird Whales.
Matthew Cheung (04:36):
And do you think people are connecting with the story because of your age, or also, because there's a lot of focus on NFTs at the moment? We've seen the price of Ethereum has gone up 40% or so in the last month, a lot of people saying that's because people want to be buying NFTs, because that's the main transactional currency now. Why do you think yours did sell out so quickly?
Benyamin Ahmed (05:00):
I think it was my age and a lot of people would find my YouTube channel and there was coding videos I uploaded from a few years ago. So then you can start piecing the story together that if you look at the background environment, this seems believable.
Matthew Cheung (05:16):
And then am I right in saying that you don't have a bank account? So this you know, nearly half a million dollars is sitting in a crypto wallet?
Benyamin Ahmed (05:27):
Yes. I don't have a bank account. I think I can go and register, but I want to stay bankless for now.
Matthew Cheung (05:32):
So that, that must make you one of the youngest, most wealthiest people in the world that doesn't have a bank account. Imran, you're Benjamin's father, as a parent, what do you feel about all of this? And did you do anything special to encourage your son's, you know, curiosity and creativeness and entrepreneurship? Because there's, there's lots of young people who listen to this podcast, but there's also lots of parents. I mean, I, myself, I've got five-year-old and just thinking about, should I start exposing them to technology and coding? It'd be really interesting just to hear your part of the story as well.
Imran Ahmed (06:10):
Yeah. I think Benyamin is giving you a really good overview for what happened with this current project, but the backstory of this is, and people just see the end result and the thing, oh my God, he's made this much money over the space of a couple of weeks. They don't realize that there's a big history behind this. So him and his brother, they started playing around with code when they were five or six years old. I know it sounds really not so hard to believe, but I'm a programmer. I used to come home. I had my laptop off. I was always working on side projects and they just used to have a look around and see what I'm doing. And then I set them up with an old laptop and I bought another new laptop. And they started playing around with HTML, CSS, bootstrap, because that was quite visual for them. They could start building stuff like websites, and they really enjoyed that. It was really fun to begin with, but I picked up really quickly that they were really receptive to this stuff. And they were like, soaking it in like a sponge. So obviously I'm thinking long term. And I thought, okay, let me try and up the game a little bit here. And every time I upped it the training went a little bit more formal, I became a little bit stricter. I became a little bit more, you know, structure around it and they just kept soaking it up. And it's upped because of them because they've kept the interest that we've managed to stay on this track. Otherwise we would have fallen off it long ago so now they've just got to the point where they do coding every single day. And my philosophy is that you can't cram this. You can't learn it over two to three weeks or months. So we consistently try to do coding every day, at least. So on a busy day, when they've had like lots of homework, lots of stuff, we'll just do like a 20 minute exercise and call it a day. On other days, we might do up to an hour, hour and a half just depending on how they feel. But one thing we are really structured around is consistency. So recently they went on a holiday to Cornwall. The laptops went with them in the morning or in the evening, they quickly knocked out an exercise. So it's down to them and obviously down to my interest as well. So you have to look that he's been doing it since he's five. And if you want to go back even further, I've had a love affair with coding for like probably 25 30 years now. So this has come at the end of a real long history of just being passionate around tech and programming, coding, and development and creativity.
Matthew Cheung (08:37):
Fantastic. So a lot of routine, you know, obviously sports is a lot of people that are familiar with, and you hear about your Nadals and Federers and famous footballers who are playing since they're three, four years old. And that's because you can spend the time and you can master something over a very long period of time and you build good routines and habits.
Imran Ahmed (09:03):
Yeah. And it's, that's definitely the same with music as well. Like they'll tell you that look practice 20 to 30 minutes a day from, you know, from as early as you can. So music, I think consistency is very good. And I think you have to look, there's an unfair advantage here as well because of the environment that he's growing up. I think back to something, somebody like Gianni Versace, where his mother was a dressmaker and he literally grew up in her boutique. So even when he's not coding or making dresses yourself, you're in that environment, all the interaction I have with my contacts, the projects I'm working on, all of that is just constantly filtering through to them. So this obviously creates a massive, unfair advantage, but it's not unachievable if you've got the interest because there's a lot of resources out there. There's a lot of help out there. He's got help on this project, even before I got involved with because he's part of various open source and discord communities. So a normal, regular person who wants to do something like this, don't be put off that, oh obviously he's in a unique environment because there are people willing to help and him himself, he runs a discord channels. If you go to his Twitter, it's ObiOneBenomi and he's got the links there and they've had lots of people that they've recently helped launch the NFTs, or they've just helped get into programming
Matthew Cheung (10:30):
And Benyamin. What do you think about coding? What did interest you about it from, from the beginning? Because obviously I've just been talking about, you've been around it as an environment and you've just been there and seen it. And you've had some curiosity just to start trying some stuff. What actually interests you the most about it?
Benyamin Ahmed (10:51):
What I like about coding is I think as a superpower, it enables you to do many things. You can go to websites, you can accumulate this much wealth just by learning coding. So coding it's really interesting. And I think in the future, coding will become like second nature. It will kind of become like, it'll probably be more taught in lessons at school because coding enables you to do so many things across the web and introduces so many platforms, introduces them in jobs to people. So I think coding is really, really amazing thing to learn from a very young age.
Matthew Cheung (11:28):
You mentioned there about having a superpower and, you know, we were just talking before we started recording here about the future of, of how things are progressing and so on. And even in the last couple of weeks, obviously NFTs has been in the news a lot, but the metaverse has been in the news a lot, metaverse has been around for a long time. And then Facebook has obviously started talking about it and everyone's now looking at it, but one of the things we'll probably touch on later on, but this idea of actually crypto, NFTs, metaverse and how they're all interlinked. And you just mentioned superpowers. You can imagine something like in ready player one, in the future where you can be creating and building your own superpowers, you know, creating avatars or digital commodities that that super super person could be using inside the metaverse. But these are all these things that you're one of the very first kind of early innovators in this space, it's gonna be fascinating to see, see the story from here. So, in terms of NFTs themselves like non fungible tokens, there'll be lots of people that are listening to this who, who may understand them, but probably lots that don't as well. And it's just a little bit abstract and I'm sure, I don't know how many interviews you've done now, but I'm sure it's like 10, 20, 30 or more, but you've probably refined quite a good answer now for that question. So can you tell us what an NFT is and why do you think they're so sought after, at the moment?
Benyamin Ahmed (12:57):
So an NFT stands for non fungible token. Everybody understands the non and the token part, but they struggle on the definition of fungible. So fungible means an item can be replaceable, consider money as a fungible item. If I give you 10 pounds and ask for it back in two weeks, you can give me any 10 pounds back as it's replaceable. However, with an NFT, if I give you an NST and ask for it back in two weeks, you have to give me that exact NFT back because it's not replaceable. So the reason why NFTs have grown in popularity over the last few months, because the ownership of an NFT can easily be verified and transferred via the blockchain. Nfts just started off with digital arts, but could soon expand to a whole host of other assets, including music, your ownership of houses, the ownership of cars, and even passports.
Matthew Cheung (13:52):
Brilliant. That's a fantastic explanation. I'm sure a lot of people appreciate that as they learn about NFTs. One thing maybe a question for you Imran with your background as a web developer in financial markets. One thing that I found when I was using OpenSea and setting up a wallet, it's quite clunky, the experience at the moment. Yeah, because I recently I bought a Weird Whale the other day, I've got another NFT that I own as well, but in order to buy the Weird Whale, I had to get some Bitcoin that I bought donkeys years ago sitting in Coinbase, I was in Coinbase Pro. I had to transfer from Coinbase Pro to Coinbase. I then had to set up a Coinbase Wallet and transfer from there to the wallet. Then you have to add the wallet onto OpenSea and then I could buy a Weird Whale, but I found it quite frustrating, actually the user experience to do it. And that's probably a factor of where we are at the moment, because it's such early days, but you've seen, if you look at the volumes on OpenSea, I think it was like $3 billion last month, which was triple what it was the month before. And probably 10 times what it was the month before that. And that's only going to continue because we're at the early days at the moment. I mean, Imran, have you got any comments from how you see that, because you've been working in financial markets, your whole career and because financial markets have been around for a long time, there's a lot of processes that have been, that are very slick, you know, with particularly things that are traded on an exchange, you can just click a button and it's done. Whereas crypto and NFTs aren't quite at those stages, but because of the money that's coming into these industries is changing rapidly. You know, in my role with ipushpull, where we're doing financial technology in banking, we do a lot more around the digitalization of process for companies who are trading in markets, which historically still have people picking up the phone and talking to each other. And then you're seeing those types of industries digitized, but because the amount of money that people are making in NFTs and crypto, all of those resources are now starting to focus into that area. And you can begin to see this exponential growth that we've already seen up to now, but you're going to still keep seeing those doublings and everything just keeps doubling year after year after year, you know, 30 doublings, you go from zero to, you know, a billion times return. So it's, it's a really, really interesting and fascinating time for technology. And I think to be alive. What do you think about that Imran?
Imran Ahmed (16:29):
Yeah. I agree with you. The user experience is really clunky and it's actually not that easy to resolve because at the core of this is decentralization. You want to manage your own wealth. You want to manage your own data. So you can't introduce like a centralization into it. So you can't have like a help desk that you ring to reset your password. So it has to be some level of education on users on how to manage their own wallets, on how to remember their seed phrase. I know it's not the best experience, and it worries me that this could exasperate the digital divide because now it's no longer a case of knowing how the web works. Now you have to understand a little bit about cryptography and managing your own seed phrases. So this is one of the reasons why I think it's taken so long to fix the user experience around this. So you have got services like Coinbase. You said, where, you know, it's more centralized. You can go there, you can keep your money on the exchange, but ultimately you need the option for people to take it off their exchange, save it into cold storage, manage their own wealth. So I think it has to be a lot of education around that. And hopefully younger generation as they come through the ranks, it will be second nature to them. I mean, Brian Armstrong who set up Coinbase himself said that the first time he used Bitcoin, it felt like using Git on the command line. And he said he could just envisage that a GitHub would be required as a wrapper around this to make the user experience a lot better. So there is a better user experience there, but it introduces centralization and it takes away from everything which they say is what this is about, about decentralization, managing your own wealth, managing your own data and becoming completely sovereign away from these huge tech giants that seem to control our lives.
Matthew Cheung (18:35):
And Benyamin, going onto the Weird Whales Collections. So obviously the price of Ether has rocketed, which means the price of the total collection is continuing to increase. And it's something like eight or $9 million for that, for the whole collection, which is, which is absolutely amazing. Well done! I'm sure lots of people would be interested in, you know, what plans you have for any other NFTs, or future technology products. And also you mentioned in another interview recently about you see a billion dollar infrastructure business has been a possible direction for you in the future. Can you talk about that?
Benyamin Ahmed (19:15):
So I don't want to be a one hit wonder. I don't want to be known as the Weird Whales kid for the rest of my life. Long-Term I want to do an infrastructure business. However, in the meantime, we're working on a few NFT collections. So when I look at digital art scene, I think of them in three groups. So the first group is high-end arts that people are willing to pay loads for, for example, Art Blocks, Crypto Punks. This is art that outlines to crypto renaissance. The second group is billion dollar brands that will expand into merchandise and games and this is and key collections such as Cool Cats and Bored Apes. And the last group is cheap NFTs, but with a lot of utility. So this is like in game cosmetics in games, skins. So you can take your weapons. And I think this group is where a billion dollar infrastructure business will lie in the future.
Matthew Cheung (20:11):
That sounds amazing. It'll be interesting to see where you go with idea from here, and I'm sure you've got lots of investors that will be lined up to invest in you. We kind of touched on this earlier both of you around the idea of, of the metaverse and actually where that does intersect with NFTs. And I think this billion dollar business that you're talking about is, is exactly that Benyamin. Yeah, if you can be building different types of items or weapons or cosmetics or commodities that people can interact with in a digital world and where that is then intersecting with future technologies like VR and AR and the metaverse essentially, where do you as a 12 year old and you know, you've got your finger on the pulse with, with NFTs and technology, what do you think the world is going to be like in 10, 20 years time?
Benyamin Ahmed (21:09):
So in 10, 20 years time, I think this cryptocurrency stuff, now it seems all a bit hard to learn and a bit clunky, like you talked about before. I think in the future, everyone will understand this. As people need the next generation start picking this up easier and from a younger age. And I think in the movie, you always see this utopia with the holograms and buildings and these mega cities. And I think that's where the future will go, as it will enhance with the metaverse and cryptocurrency.
Matthew Cheung (21:41):
Have you got anything to add to that Imran?
Imran Ahmed (21:46):
Yeah. I mean, I kind of agree with what Ben said and the thing is new technology just doesn't come out of the blue. So if you look at the internet, if you look at AI and machine learning, you look at robotics, you look at cryptography itself, these have existed for decades and the tech a long time of light research and academia to mature. So I think a lot of these trends are coming together now with AI, machine learning, robotics via cryptography. I think all of these are maturing for why the usage at the same time. So I think how these intersect with each other is going to be fascinating as like people have said that cryptocurrency is the native currency for machine to machine transactions, and there's vastly more machines on earth than human. So if you look at something like a self-driving car vehicles, if they become a reality over the next, you know, 15, 20, 25 years, what's the native currency going to between these guys - it's going to be cryptocurrencies. You're going to pull up and your car is going to pay for the parking all automated. If you get any fines along the way, it's going to pair that all automated. So I think the fascinating thing for me is that we're having, you know, five or six real major technological breakthroughs that have taken several decades to mature. That all seemed to be mature in at the same time.
Matthew Cheung (23:15):
Yeah, it definitely is. It's a convergence of exponential technologies. It sounds like you're both very well-placed to ride that wave, you know, and the wave is just starting at the moment. But with that in mind, like you're 12 years old, the normal kind of route for people is obviously, you know, you study and then you go to college and university and start a job and so on, where you've kind of got to and already built some wealth. So you could create something using that wealth. What's your view on, I'm just putting a question for both of you, what's your view actually on going to university and obviously you still need to finish school, but beyond that, do you think you're going to learn anything by going to somewhere like university? And when you hear about all the, you know, all of the big tech superstars out there, most of them dropped out of college and university. What's your perspective on that? Or have you not thought about it yet?
Benyamin Ahmed (24:10):
So right now, I'm just still planning to do my GCSE and A Levels. However I'm currently, I think at the stage I am, I'm wanting to go to university, but I'm not sure what it will be like in a few years' time. And I think even if you know everything and it's just in the universities, just teaching that you again, I think university is good because it introduces you to your friends, which normally you stick around with very long time until you go to your grade, so I think university is good for building friendship. And I think that's why university is great because you meet a lot of really interesting people. So if you go to a good university, you might be studying someone who wants to do law. So let's say you're older. If you have need a lawyer, you know, this person is going to be a good lawyer.
Matthew Cheung (25:00):
That's a great answer and a very mature answer as well. You know, I think having range, you know, have not just being specialized in one particular area and having a range through your friends, through your interests and also put your friends' interests as well. You mentioned about law, for example, you're not a lawyer, but you might have a friend who is, and that is a great answer. And I'm very impressed. Imran, have you got anything else to add to that?
Imran Ahmed (25:27):
Yeah likewise, I think Ben's touched up on it. University is a lot more than just academia. And so I'm a fan of universities as well. I mean, my best friend is somebody I met on the first night at university and I talked to him every single day for the past 25 years. So there's a lot more to it than just education, but I'm aware that the world might be changing as well. Like universities getting expensive. There's a lot of debt. A lot of these stuff is delivered online anywhere. There's less opportunities to go in and people can, there's a vast amount of knowledge on the internet that you can build. So even though I've got an emotional, let's say attachment to universities, I'm aware of the fact that, you know, by the time in five, 10 years, things might have changed where a lot of the stuff might just be easier to absorb online and how you might manage that and still build your social life and all the wider context. I think that's something for other people to try and resolve, not me!
Matthew Cheung (26:29):
And in terms of, Benjamin, you mentioned obviously things like YouTube and there's lots of great online resources. You know some free some you pay for, I know obviously you've got your family that you're around as well, but there's a lot of young people now that are looking to you as an inspirational figure because of what you've achieved and what you've learned in your life so far. Have you got any kind of guidance or advice you could give to people? Like, for example, I heard in another interview, you said like the ability to read code is more important than writing code and, and there's some other things that you've been involved in, like CodeWars and things like that. Is there some good advice you can give to fellow young people?
Benyamin Ahmed (27:12):
Yes. The ability to read code is more important than ability to write code, because if you think about it, you read code when you're looking through your code, you read code. When you're looking through someone else's code, that's where you have a bug in your code, you read code, let's say you wanted to add something to your code, you read your existing code and see what you can add. So I think reading code is like a better skill to learn and actually learning to actual code. So my advice to the younger generation is don't just try and say, okay, I'm gonna learn this in two to three months and try and cram it slowly, drip feed it consistently for a few years. And if you do that, I think not only will be better for you because you just spent a little bit of time every day, but it also get you as much as you just trying to cram it in a small amount of time. Yeah.
Imran Ahmed (28:06):
I mean, I just like to add to that. So anybody interested in this space, it don't have to restrict themselves to coding because this is just much bigger than just churning out code, I mean, this new, like what you touched upon the metaverse, it's going to need graphic design. It is going to need content creators. It's going to need all sorts of people with a variety of, if we touched on lawyers before, there's a lot of legal issues around this like ownership and copyright and IP infringement and whatever else is going to pop up on there, there's going to be a multitude of skills that are required across this. So genuine interest in the space and the genuine interest in trying to envisage what kind of world we build within over the next 10, 15, 20 years. It's probably more important than building any hard skill at this point.
Matthew Cheung (29:00):
And just to round off this interview, what have you both learned over the summer when, how, obviously there's the accumulation of wealth in crypto that you can then build on and use for other things, but taking that aside, what have you both learned from a kind of view from a personal development capacity and also with your mindset as well, because I'm sure now your mind must have a million ideas, on future directions and it must be a really, really exciting place to be at. What are you thinking and feeling? I know we kind of started off with that question, but now we kind of dug a little bit deeper into some of the, some of the concepts and some of the journeys and potentially the future. How do you think that's affected you over the last six weeks and how's it helped you?
Benyamin Ahmed (29:47):
So over the last six weeks, I've learned way more about NFTs and coding of smart contracts and about the Ethereum blockchain, how to read EtherScan logs. And I think I've realized that NFTs are not just JPEGs. They're like a new funding model of arts and culture. So imagine if you have the next Star Wars as an NFT and the money from that's made from the NFT is used to let's create a new TV series and then the royalties from that TV series, goes back down to the token holders. So I think, in a few years will be really big in the future and could expand to replace signatures, it will replace the passports or even replace the ownership of houses and cars.
Imran Ahmed (30:36):
Yeah. I mean, yeah, likewise, I've obviously learned a lot more about NFTs and the digital arts space. I was a little bit sceptical about digital art. I remember when the crypto pumps came out in 2017, I think it was, and they were free to make, the gas fees were around by $80 to $100 and it seemed extortionate at the time. So I've obviously learnt a lot more about digital art, the programmable aspects of it, and how Ben touched upon it, how these can be used as funding models and the uses of that. I've also just learned about, you know, you can spend your whole marketing budget and trying to make a project go viral and it's, I don't know why some projects go viral and some not so it's interesting to work in IT for so long that I've had a taste of a project that's, you know, truly gone internationally viral as well. So I've kind of learnt all about that and the mechanisms around that. And so, yeah, it's been really interesting. And like I said, I just want to thank Ben that he's been interested in this space because without his genuine interest, we would never have got this far.
Matthew Cheung (31:46):
Fantastic Benyamin and Imran, this has been a really interesting conversation, a lot, and lots of people are going to be able to learn from this. I think I've been very impressed Benyamin with your, with your mindset and your maturity of how you're approaching things and problems and Imran, you must be very proud. Well done.
Benyamin Ahmed (32:01):
Thank you for having us.
Imran Ahmed (32:05):
Thank you, Matthew. Thank you.
Matthew Cheung (32:07):
Thank you. Bye-Bye.
Imran Ahmed (32:08):
Thank you.
Matthew Cheung (32:10):
Thanks for listening to this podcast. And for more interviews, please go to Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts and just search for Work in FinTech. And you'll hear interviews from Blockchain.com and Google through to JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs, where we talk to leaders in the FinTech universe. And also sign up to our mailing list at Work in fintech.com. And we'll keep you up to date with the FinTech and crypto courses, cohorts and coaching that we'll be launching and follow us on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, and TikTok. Thank you very much.